Four candidates took the stage Tuesday in Saskatoon for the federal New Democrats’ leadership debate, but it was the ideas of one of them in particular that seemed to fire up the others on stage.
That would be Jagmeet Singh, the provincial Ontario MPP whose stance on old age security and other issues drew some of the most animated responses on the night.
The most interesting exchange erupted when Charlie Angus, MP for Timmins-James Bay, took on Singh on the notion of applying a means test to old age security as part of Singh’s proposal of redistribution to those in poverty.
"Mr. Singh, you’re telling us that applying a means test to the old age pension is a progressive idea because it’s about your idea of redistribution. Universality of old age pensions is one of our fundamental principles. It’s a New Democratic Party principle. Why would you take a position that Liberals and Conservatives would have liked?"
"First of all it’s Old Age Security that I am talking about, and Old Age Security is not universal right now. So you need to do some research," Singh responded.
"Right now, if you earn more than $70,000, it is already clawed back. So I guess you need to double-check your facts. I believe that right now, we have a responsibility to stand up for redistribution."
“A woman, her husband dies, and she has to cash a bond to pay for his funeral and her pension gets clawed back. That to me is the indignity of what right wing economics does,” Angus responded. “Here in Saskatchewan of all places, how could you call a means test redistribution?”
"It is. It’s the definition,” said Singh. “If someone is earning a million dollars a year, they don't need a thousand dollars a month. That person should be contributing to people in poverty."
After Singh’s response both Guy Caron and Angus held up white cards to ask for additional time to speak.
Caron: “It is still NDP policy to fight for universality of programs. Old age security - the NDP was in the forefront of fighting against the end of universality for old age security and family allowances. Our policy hasn’t changed. We still should fight for universality of those programs...”
Angus (to Singh): “You're talking about people who make a million dollars, when I am talking about widows who are going to be having their savings clawed back because they have to cash bonds to pay for a funeral. It's the indignities of what’s treated to seniors, and you, my friend, when you make it seem as if it’s a great progressive idea, well, where I come from that is not progressive. Seniors fought for that. Seniors should have that protected. And that to me is a fundamental principle of New Democratic party values in this country."
Singh: “Let me make this clear. Seniors earning over $70,000 already see their OAS clawed back. It is not universal…”
Afterwards, Angus and Singh agreed the exchange was a big moment in the debate.
“The issue of universality of seniors programs is a fundamental core principle of the NDP,” Angus said.
“I was surprised that he raised that issue here in Saskatchewan where we’ve done so much work to fight for universality of programs. So I think that again, it gave the audience a chance to hear different views. If Mr. Singh is going to take us in that direction, well, it may mean other things may be up now for means tests.”
“Old age security is an incredible program, and I want to make sure that we target, we address, with income transfers, that we make sure that our income transfers go to people who need it most,” said Singh.
“With universal programs like health care, day care and medical care, these are universal programs that everyone should have equal access to. But things that require us to tackle poverty mean that we’ll need to have to have some redistribution, and redistribution isn’t universal. So I firmly believe that those who can invest a little bit more need to do so to lift those who are in poverty out of it.”
The gang-up on Singh on the old age security issue was notable, and possibly a sign that other candidates regard him as a growing threat in the leadership race.
There were several other notable moments on the night, including ones on issues of particular importance to Saskatchewan residents.
The issue of national carbon pricing came up early on in the debate as candidates were asked how to reconcile provinces like Manitoba and Saskatchewan, who were opposed to it.
That prompted a lot of praise from candidates for the approach of Alberta Premier Rachel Notley and a lot of negative remarks towards the Saskatchewan and Manitoba premiers.
Angus described Premier Brad Wall as “like the man violently defending the future of the typewriter when everyone else has moved to cellphones.”
“Mr. Wall, I’m sorry. But the 20th Century is over, and we are well into the 21st century,” he said. “I’d say get on the program, start working with us.”
“My premier, Brian Pallister, doesn’t speak for me,” Manitoba MP Niki Ashton said, adding “we have an NDP vision, a progressive vision, that states clearly that climate change is not a hoax, it is real and we need to take it seriously.”
“It says something when those two premiers are going in the wrong direction when even the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers and the Canadian Mining Association are in favour of carbon pricing,” said Caron.
Singh went even further and attacked Wall’s provincial budget. “What a callous and savage budget that slashed so many services people depend on.”
Also an issue was the dismantling of the Canadian Wheat Board, and the issues surrounding rail transportation of grain to market. Candidates pointed to the dismantling of the single-desk as one reason for the delays that transpired earlier this decade.
“First and foremost we know that that was a horrible decision, that Harper betrayed farmers by privatizing the Wheat Board,” Singh said. “The majority of farmers wanted to maintain that board in public hands.”
“The solution, I believe is moving back to a co-operative model,” said Angus, who also decried the end of the Wheat Board.
“It removed their marketing power vis-à-vis the transporters, the CN and CP,” said Caron of the Wheat Board dismantling. Caron added that “Liberals and Conservatives are afraid of CN and CP and they will not fight for you.”
“I want to begin by giving a shout-out to the many people in this room who fought to keep the single desk,” said Ashton.
“It was an honour to work with you and many in fighting for the Canadian Wheat Board.”
She also called the loss of the Wheat Board single-desk “part of Harper’s agenda to make our country more and more unequal,” taking control out of farmer’s hands and putting in the hands of big corporations.
“He’s made the corporate sector much wealthier at the expense of everybody else.”
There was a wide range of other issues discussed at the Saskatoon event at TCU Place, the fifth one in the series of federal NDP leadership debates in the run-up to the October vote. The debate was mainly in English but also included some segments in French which allowed candidates to show their French-language skills to the audience.
Video from the debate has been posted on the federal NDP’s website and at CPAC, where it can be seen in its entirety.
